79: Navigating the World of Finance Without Children with Dr. Jay Zigmont

Did you know that most financial plans and planning software are geared entirely to the traditional parenting path?  I hadn't really thought about how my saving, spending, retirement and estate planning might be totally different than that of my child-rearing friends.   Until I met Jay Zigmont. 

Jay Zigmont, holds a PhD, MBA, and CFP® and is the Founder of Childfree Wealth, a life and financial planning firm dedicated to helping Childfree and Permanently Childless people. Childfree Wealth is the first life and financial planning firm dedicated to serving people without kids. 

In this episode, Jay shares his story about how he came to be on the childless path and what lead him to start Childfree Wealth.  It was a fascinating and enlightening discussion where Jay shares:

• why financial plans for people without kids often looks entirely different than that of a parent
• the questions you can ask yourself that will help you uncover what you want to save for and spend your money (and energy) on
• tips for choosing a financial planner 

Dr. Jay is a CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER™, Childfree Wealth Specialist, and author of the book “Portraits of Childfree Wealth.” Dr Jay is the co-host of the Childfree Wealth podcast. His Ph.D. is in Adult Learning from the University of Connecticut.

He has been featured in Fortune, Forbes, MarketWatch, Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Business Insider, CNBC, and many other publications. In 2023, he was named a “Rising Star” by Financial Planning.

Where to find Dr. Jay:
Website: Childfreewealth.com
Instagram: @childfreewealth
Jay's book:  get a free copy of Portraits of Childfree Wealth 

Where to find Sheri:
Instagram @sherijohnsoncoaching
Website: sherijohnson.ca

Other References in Episode:

Podcast episode: Jay Zigmont on Spinsterhood Reimagined

If you want to create your best life in 2024, even without kids, download my free guide.  You'll discover how to find purpose, joy and fulfillment and what might be standing in the way. 
Click here for your free guide

Transcript

Sheri Johnson: 0:03

Welcome back to the Awakening Worth podcast. I am really excited about my guest today. He's the first guy I've had on the podcast and we're talking about what I think is kind of a refreshing topic, but it might be heavy for some of you. We're talking about child-free wealth and I have Dr Jay Zigmont with me and he is really served. He's a certified financial planner and he serves the child-free, childless community, so I'm really excited to get into it with him. Jay, thank you so much for joining. I'm really delighted to have you.

Jay Zigmont: 0:48

Glad to be here. Hey, if I could be your first guy. I mean, I guess I'm a trendsetter or something.

Sheri Johnson: 0:53

Yes, yeah, absolutely yeah, thank you. It's kind of, as I said, it's really refreshing for me to kind of get a guy's perspective and we're going to get into the wealth and financial stuff in a little bit. But I do want to get a little bit into your story and how you landed on this path. Will you share with us?

Jay Zigmont: 1:17

Sure. So I was having this discussion with somebody and my wife and I, when we were getting married, we found out, hey, she got a 50-50 chance of dying if she gets pregnant and, to be honest, that made our choice for us. And when I was having this discussion with somebody they said, well, are you by choice or not by choice? And I'm like I don't know. It was like made for us. It wasn't like even when you had to put thought into it, it was just one of those like okay, well, not taking that chance. And it's interesting in the community People talk about the terms child-free, childless and which term they like and fits and everybody can use their own. I happen to use child-free for us. What do you want to call child-free, permanently, childless, by choice? I don't know. But for us it was just not really a choice and I don't know that we have one of those boxes, you know, like the child-free, childless, not by even having thought about it, because it was just not a choice.

Sheri Johnson: 2:12

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I'm not one for the labels either and I really feel like it's not very black and white, even if you decide to label yourself. You know there's people who are in your situation. There's people who are sort of ambiguous and so they didn't consciously choose not to have kids, they just nor did they really consciously choose to have them. So they're in this space where they don't have kids, but they're sort of okay with it. Maybe there was some grief with it, maybe there wasn't. You know, there's so many reasons we get here. So can I ask you this, and this might be a personal question, but was there a layer of grief there for you when you found out that, like, that was where your life was going, when you didn't necessarily plan it to be that way?

Jay Zigmont: 3:05

I mean, this was 15 plus years ago, so it's kind of like, you know, going back on the way back machine, but I think at the time I probably would have been considered a fence sitter, if we want to put terms on it. You know a little bit more on the. You know wherever life takes you, it fits, and I think that is that is a reality check for guys versus women. A lot of guys, you know, it's more like well with how life takes me. It's not like it has to be one or the other, and I think the interesting part, though, was more the reaction from others when we said we were going to have kids.

Jay Zigmont: 3:37

So to be a great example is my wife was raised Catholic and her family and her wanted to get married ever get married in the Catholic Church. And we go to the priest this is hey, you have to agree to raise your kids Catholic. We said, sure, we'll agree to it, we're not going to have kids. He goes oh no, you have to agree to have kids and raise them Catholic. Three priests later we weren't able to get married in the Catholic Church. So it's all those things outside you don't think about that then made it a little bit more challenge.

Sheri Johnson: 4:05

I heard you talking about that on another podcast and that just that floored me. I mean, I've I've had a lot of conversations with women who grew up religious. I grew up religious and I've only recently come to this realization about how, how pronatalist the church really is and how conditioned I was by the church to to gravitate towards that nuclear family. Like that was what you do. You get married, you then you have kids, so there's you know, all the shame involved in having kids prior or having sex prior or all those types of things. And then, if you don't have kids, where do you fit? You know there's so many. I started looking into the references in the Bible to you know, be fruitful and multiply and blessed are the children. Like, there's so many, so many references that really make us feel alone when you, when you don't fit into that mold.

Jay Zigmont: 5:21

Well, and I thought, you know, maybe it was just you know whatever. We got married 14, 15 years ago. Maybe it was just like one of those old things. And then something the other week was in posting like hey, I tried to get married Catholic church and I'm like still like it's 2023. I mean like what's the point? And you know, I don't know, maybe maybe it's just because you know we're, we live in Mississippi right now. We're living in the deep red south of the US in a post-war world where the you know where the overturned from row came from.

Jay Zigmont: 5:52

And I'll tell you it's a challenge, whether it's religion or culture or whatever you want to call it. You know, we went to sell our house recently and I had to take out all my child free stuff because the realtors like, yeah, that does not stand out, because it'll be an issue. Yeah, okay, I'm not like recruiting for the cause or anything. You know, and I've been looking online up the amount of people that pray for my soul or whatever, because and I'm like, whatever, just live your own life, I mean. But you are right, it is the standard life plan, the standard life script, the culture, the religion, whatever you want to call it that is pushing people and then when we leave that we get like these feelings that come with it and others put pressure on it and you know it's. It's one of those things where I'm just more like live your own life. You don't get to vote in my life, I don't get to vote in yours, but that's not the way other people live.

Sheri Johnson: 6:45

I was thinking about this actually recently and I'll tell you a little story, because I think it's. This is what is going on behind the scenes when you get those kinds of comments and that pressure and all that stuff and it went. So I have a dog, I and I live near the the Lake Georgian Bay and there's all these water access points along the water where people who don't live on the water can go and swim or boat launch their boats or whatever. So I went to one of these and brought my dog and he was. I just stopped in there we had already been on a hike and I just stopped in to just to let him go in the water and get cleaned off.

Sheri Johnson: 7:29

And the woman who lived next door to that access point came out and started yelling at me you can't park your car here, you can't relieve your dog here. All the her rules. Maybe they are actually bylaws. There was a no parking sign. I realized later, but it really made me stop and wonder like why is it so like she? This isn't her property, she lives next to it. Why is she so concerned about me following the rules?

Sheri Johnson: 8:02

And it's the same thing when you don't have children, especially if you choose not to have them. I think when people try, you know they they try to talk you into it or they don't let you get married in their church because of it, like they're, I think all of those people are saying, well, you're not living by the rules and you need to get back in the box over here. This, which is pronatalism, this ideology that we've been living in, and the, the amount of the, the, the levels or the, the, the things that people will do and say to get you to come back to live in the box, is quite astonishing actually.

Jay Zigmont: 9:57

Well, and I would argue that we need, as a community, to be out there talking about our lives and saying you know how we live it and what works for us and what doesn't, because people you know don't understand us and that's okay. I mean, I think we. When I started my research, I had no clue how many people are out there or child free or early child less or where it fits. And you know, there was a study in Michigan that found that somewhere around 20% of adults over 18 were child free and another 5% were child less. So you know, they define as childless not by choice or child free by choice. So we're talking about huge percentages. Yeah, People are still saying, oh, you're weird or you know like, you're different and there's a problem with it.

Jay Zigmont: 10:36

And I spend half my time talking to child free people about their finances and half the other half time talking to the finance people about child free. And, by the way, when I use the word child free, I'm intentionally using that because it's really hard to say people who don't have kids and don't play on having kids, wealth. I had to pick a name and you know, and if I say child free and permanently childless, which is actually what I mean. People get confused, so I apologize as I use the terms interchangeably, but when I talk to financial people about this, I'm amazed Well, they'll just change their minds, so their finances should be the same. I'm like no, Well, this is not different. No, or like all these assumptions.

Jay Zigmont: 11:15

And I was working on a piece for financial planners and for a big website and doing the editing and I said, hey, be sure to check your biases and realize your own thoughts. And the person I was writing with was like yeah, there are no biases against child-free folks. And I'm like, you're just not aware of them, Like you know, and you have to pick your battles, because if I had picked that battle, the article probably wouldn't even run you know I was working.

Jay Zigmont: 11:39

I do a lot of press and I was working with One Place and I was working on something financial random and I said, hey, by the way, you know, if you ever have a chance, I'd love to talk about child-free finances and how it's different. And this rapport says to me well, I'm not sure we can put that word in print. I was like what, well, using the word child-free is like using the word suicide, where people will do it. And I'm like what in the world world am I living in?

Sheri Johnson: 12:07

Like in the end.

Jay Zigmont: 12:09

he did come back and he was OK using it, but he had to check with his editor if it was OK to use the word child-free.

Sheri Johnson: 12:14

And I'm like he's so fascinating. Yeah Well, and it's kind of like that is pronatalism at work. It's the same thing, right? We don't want to start talking about this. We need to continue to shame people, and that's when we keep things a secret. Then we're shaming them or they're feeling shame if they don't talk about it. Whenever something's taboo, there's shame there, and so if we keep shaming people and not talking about this, then they won't think it's normal to do it and there's going to be that much more pressure on them to not do it. So I mean, I think there's a little bit of truth to that way, like the more that we talk about it, the more and the less shame there is around making that choice. Then maybe more people actually would say no, because right now I wonder how many women and men are going ahead and being parents just because they don't even know there's another way.

Jay Zigmont: 13:25

Well, I think at least in the US there's an interesting stat. So my wife works in public health and we were looking at some of these numbers and if you look at the number of people getting vasectomies or other sterilization procedures post-row being overturned, it's through the roof.

Jay Zigmont: 13:37

I mean huge multiples where people are realizing, hey, I've decided it's different life and there's a generational thing. And people say to me well, gen Y, gen Z, whatever, they'll change their mind. I'm like, no, they're sterilized, like it's done, they've made a choice. And they're like well, I don't believe it. I'm like I got people from my book they're 21 that were sterilized and they're like this is it.

Jay Zigmont: 14:05

And people are like huh, there's somebody in my book. She said this, but she went to church and every Sunday they would preach about being a good mom, being a good dad. That's what your job is. And she was in her early 20s and I didn't realize there was an option not to have kids. All of a sudden she realized it and she's like that's for me and it's OK. And it's OK if you want to have kids, you get to choose. And I don't think it's our place, anyone's place, to put it on people. But I had somebody.

Jay Zigmont: 14:34

I was advertising something for a company and they said well, I'm praying for your childless souls and blah, blah, blah, ok, fine. And then they go down this path and he talks about well, you need to have kids because we need warriors and taxpayers, and you created these social programs. And I'm like what are you talking about, dude? I'm just living my best life and you're talking about politics and all this other, and we need to have kids, so we have warriors. I'm like what world are we in? And maybe it's just the internet bringing out the crazies, but it's real.

Sheri Johnson: 15:08

No, I mean, there is Jody Day and I actually talked about this a couple of episodes ago and the whole capitalist structure is based on more people coming in. Like you need more and more people to be taxpayers to pay for the people who are aging and needing those services and so on. Like you need Jody said it's a pyramid scheme, which I never thought about before, but it totally is. So there's some pretty big leaders in the world Elon Musk is one of them who really puts forward these pronatalist ideals. Like you need to have more kids. We need more kids in the world to be consumers and he doesn't necessarily say it in that way, but they're going to support the economy.

Jay Zigmont: 16:08

Well, and I'm always talking to financial folks, so they're always about money. Let's just be real on that. And I was on one podcast and we were talking about things and Social Security came up for the US folks and Social Security is 100% assuming constant growth. If you don't have constant growth at the bottom of the pyramid to pay, for the people that are older. It falls apart. And I said to the person I said look that social security is broken. That is not me or my child-free folks broken.

Jay Zigmont: 16:37

The system is messed up and if you really want to see an interesting one, you look at Japan. Japan, right now, 33% of folks are child-free or childless and their elderly population is booming, huge, and as an economy they're going. I don't know how we do this and I have no clue how they're going to solve it. There's some of the solutions. They're like hey, the elderly folks should be committing sepaku, and often themselves.

Sheri Johnson: 17:03

I'm like hold on Whoa, whoa, whoa we went down a wavy.

Jay Zigmont: 17:06

But they're like, hey, we need to figure out how to do this to convince people to have kids so that we can. And I'm like, no, the system's broken. It's not the kids that are solution. The system needs to get fixed. And I am not tackling how do we fix the whole economy. But then we get into global warming, all that stuff, kinds of growth. It just doesn't work. So we're not at the fall, it's just we're picking a different path.

Sheri Johnson: 17:30

Yeah, exactly, I was wondering if you had so the stats that I've seen recently, it's not even like we have that much of a choice. Fertility rates are declining, more and more people are choosing not to have kids, but there's also a much larger population that is not able to have kids or have found themselves in the circumstance of just not having them, and I think the stats out there are that of those. In the US, what is it? 20% of people over 40 don't have kids, something like that.

Jay Zigmont: 18:12

So the most recent study says 20% were child-free by choice and 5% childless not by choice.

Sheri Johnson: 18:19

It's about 25% total OK, hang on a sec.

Jay Zigmont: 18:24

Say that again 20, so 25% of the US as a whole. That's a Michigan study. So if we assume that they're representative, 25% of the US as a whole don't have kids, don't plan on having kids. 20% of the US are by choice and 5% are not by choice in this study that recently came out.

Sheri Johnson: 18:43

Oh OK, so that's why I had to ask you again, because that's actually opposite of what the stats that I had seen. I had thought that it was actually a much smaller percentage that had made the choice, in a much larger proportion of those that had not made the choice. But I think it also depends on the study and how they define it, because ultimately, I mean, I made a choice as well at some point. I had to make an impossible choice, but I did make. My husband and I, we made a choice not to adopt.

Sheri Johnson: 19:17

We made a choice not to do IVF. We they felt like impossible decisions at the time, but I don't know how the studies define that Like. We all make a choice at some point. Actually, that's not true.

Jay Zigmont: 19:35

The way this study was. It was the questions were real simple of do you have kids? And then, essentially, was it by choice or not?

Jay Zigmont: 19:43

You know they worded it slightly differently. But you know, would you it was? Did you want kids or not? It was that. So you know who knows I think it's hard because of ages. So most of the stats when we look at people over 40 or 55 in the US census, they look at biological children and now they make a definition on that and your child. If you don't biological children but you could have stepped or adopted, like the research. You know my wife and I are both PhDs, we're research nerds. Research on this stuff is terrible. You know there's not a lot of data to help us. You know, and that's why we try to find the best data we can get. And you know I just I think most people don't realize how big of a percentage of the population it is.

Sheri Johnson: 20:28

Right, whether choice or not.

Jay Zigmont: 20:30

Yeah, I mean like the same study I mentioned and found that about 8% of the adults over 18 were LGBTQ plus. And if you ask most people in the US, hey, is there a bigger child free population or bigger LGBTQ plus? They would say LGBTQ plus.

Sheri Johnson: 20:45

Yeah.

Jay Zigmont: 20:46

Because, for whatever reason, that's just an assumption.

Sheri Johnson: 20:49

Yep, yeah.

Jay Zigmont: 20:51

And it turns out no.

Sheri Johnson: 20:52

Yeah, well, it's a lot of. There's so much press around that, there's so much going on around that population right now, so there's like automatically we're biased to think, oh, that there must be a lot of them if we're talking this much about it and yeah, Well, and maybe we need to start talking more about it.

Jay Zigmont: 21:18

You know, being child free or child less. For International Child Free Day, I actually sponsored a billboard in Times Square celebrating what the day was like. So a whole bunch of people, awesome. You know, this is how they celebrate child free life and all this. And we got some good press in the morning and then, at the end of the day, actually Trump got indicted the other day, so my press all went away. But you know we couldn't plan that, but it was interesting to see the reactions. The child free community was much like yay, you know, we're actually talking about ourselves. We're in the middle of Times Square. One of the people that was featured on the billboard on her Instagram somebody, was like oh, you're part of globalist propaganda to delete the population, and I'm like what the heck? And then all we're trying to do is celebrate our day and still the judgments are there and I think we just need to keep pushing forward and saying, hey, we're here and eventually, I hope society will come around and going oh, it's a valid choice, it's just, it is your life.

Sheri Johnson: 22:19

Yeah, we've got a lot of work to do, I think, before we get there. I mean, there is so much Pronatalism is so deeply ingrained in our society I mean it's been, it's you know, it's way beyond biblical times, like we're talking 2,000 years of history there, but then even well before that, there's so much we're so indoctrinated in that that it's so difficult to even like. It's almost like I feel like I was asleep to it, like I didn't even know that I was in that box until recently. Really like it's just the last few years since I started walking my own path as a childless woman and trying to figure this all out. And for me it was a process of untangling or detangling whatever the right word is there between like how much of me, my true self, wanted children and how much of that was society telling me I'm supposed to. And I got those messages continuously that this is the way it is. So that process of you know that took a couple of years for me to sort of unpick and even realize oh, there is something else going on here, this isn't just me and I, after going through that process, I realized I was actually.

Sheri Johnson: 23:58

I didn't grow up wanting like I didn't play with dolls, I didn't love to babysit. I was not one of those kids. As a 20-something and even 30-something, I just kind of thought, oh, it's going to happen. One day, you know, I'll meet. I met my husband late in my 30s and I just assumed it would happen and that's what I had planned out for my life was to have kids. But once I started to realize well, a lot of this is actually just society telling me I'm supposed to do this, and how much I realized that I was actually. I think I was kind of ambiguous to it. I could have, I mean, I wanted them, and I was quite greast stricken when I found out that we couldn't. But I don't think I was as greast stricken as some of the other women out there or couples out there, men out there, who really felt that deep need to have children.

Jay Zigmont: 25:01

Well, and we each have our own path and I think we don't realize until you, until you come off the standard life path, you don't realize how much it's pushing you back on. You know the old marathon two and a half kids, the white picket fence, the dog, the house, all that. And with my clients I'll often ask them whose voice is in your head? They start pulling apart, whose voice we very rarely find it's their own, it is their parents, their church, it's their culture, it's their life, it's their grandparents, whatever. It's all these voices we have in our head telling us what we must do. And I get people. So you know, I work in the financial world and people go. Well, I'm behind, I'm like behind. Who who says you're behind? Who are you racing with and like, there's all this like expectations of the way you have to do things. And what happens is when you leave the standard life plan, you said, hey, I'm a child free, permanently childless People then get drawn back to it. Great example of this Buying a house is a choice for child free people, not a requirement, tends to be.

Jay Zigmont: 26:06

People that are child free, permanently childless, are more mobile. They kind of, like you know, can follow their life wherever it is. My wife and I she got a good opportunity for a job. We moved 1200 miles, no big deal. Pick up the dog cat, we went. So buying a house is not the cornerstone of finance now, the same way it is for anybody else. But people go well, but I have to have a house to get ahead. I'm going. That's part of the standard plan. That's somebody's voice in your head saying you have to buy a house. You know, and you're a candidate right now and you've got some. You know I call weird mortgages that reset and people are actually getting reset to these higher interest rates right now and realizing owning a house is not as nice as it seems. You know getting smacked. In the US the house prices are crazy and I'm like, choose, not to. They're like, but it says I have to. Well, the plan. All said you have to have kids. All said you have to get married.

Sheri Johnson: 26:52

It all said you have to.

Jay Zigmont: 26:54

You get to choose your life. You know the US census found that in childless people over 55, 32.1% were never married, as opposed to 2.5% of parents. So we're talking about a third of child folks never married. Now that might mean they're in a couple, not married, or whatever structure works for them. But that's a different choice and that's okay. It's okay to choose to live this. We call it the soloist life Single, no kids, doing your thing. It does cost you more money, but you know you got to find that balance. It's okay to choose not to buy a house. It's okay to choose not to retire. It's okay to choose whatever you want. But all these voices tell us no, you're wrong, you need to do it the way the society says, and it's so true it's not gonna be happy.

Sheri Johnson: 27:42

Yeah, well, and I would argue that that's also a choice for parents. I mean, they can choose not to buy a house. I have my own sister, runtz, and she's got a little kid, she's got a husband and they have, you know, my parents constantly saying, well, you need to buy a house. You need to start like, why aren't you saving, why aren't you buying a house? And they're kind of like we actually really like the house we're living in and that's maybe not a goal for us. Like it takes a lot to overpower, overcome those voices in your head and I love the way you said that and such a great way to get at what are the beliefs that we have is what are the voices, whose voices in your head and what is it saying? Because that's so, that's. I think one of the most important things is to get at what you want, not what everybody else is telling you you're supposed to want.

Jay Zigmont: 28:42

Well, I just warn anyone listening when you do the exercise of whose voice in my head and what is it saying? Be ready for shockers, because we dilute ourselves. That's our idea. But then when you start pulling it apart and like no, that wasn't, that, was this. I was taught, taught whatever it is, expectation culture. And when I do with clients and have discussion, there's usually like this moment where they just pause and they're like yeah, that's not me and I'm like that's the point. And once you identify you can take the power away from whoever's voice that is. But it happens all the time. And if you look in finance, most, if not all, finance assumes you're gonna have kids. There are these built in things. They actually, they have a financial life plan structure and they have your phases of life and they start with kids and with kids you start, you have college and you have to give off to the next generation.

Jay Zigmont: 29:38

If you're not gonna give money to next generation. That's not your primary goal. It completely changed your finances. You know, if you know the way we say it is living a life of child, for wealth means you have time, money and freedom. It doesn't mean you're rich, like it doesn't, like there's no, like money dropping from the sky because you own kids but you have different choices. But all these things are built in and you don't realize how they're built in.

Sheri Johnson: 29:59

You know, in the financial world.

Jay Zigmont: 30:01

I'm actually fighting with software manufacturers because the software has built in biases for kids. You know they're built in just solid for these structures. They're built in a software college, buying a house, passing money to next generation, and when I go, I don't wanna do any of that they go wait, how do I do that in the software? I'm like I don't know, because it's broken, like I can't Like, and that has nothing to do with being in the US or wherever. It's just these things that are built into systematic biases, you know, pronatalist bias that we then have to pull out. And the hard part is for most parents. Their financial plans are very similar in between parents to parents. You know the number has changed number of kids, how much money but the plans is very similar. Child-free folks I don't have two plans to say because they're all picking different lives and doing different things and different goals and you know that just challenges the entire system.

Sheri Johnson: 30:55

Well, that's that is fascinating. That's something that I didn't even really think about is the. You know, I've heard you talk about the differences on the surface, like of course we're living a different life, our end of life choices about what we wanna do with our money are gonna be different, and that sort of thing. But the systematic biases, like even within the software and the way that probably that you're taught in financial planning courses and schools and that sort of thing is all biased and geared towards parents, that's so interesting.

Jay Zigmont: 31:32

I never thought about that. Well, I'll give you an example. So I started to become a certified financial planner so that the top certification for personal financial plan Never once in there is a mention of being child-free. They all assume you're gonna have kids Every single part of it, and that's why I started my research and I've been writing about this and a lot of the financial world is. You know, they joke about it being old, stale and pale. You know it's the old white men running the area. I mean, I just gotta be honest on that. So I'm talking to these guys because that's really what it is Been doing this for 40, 50 years and I'm like, yep, I'm working with the child-free folks and this is how I'll change their plan on that. And they're going I never thought of that and I'm like how could you not have? Like, how could you have not have seen it? But it's just that lens they're looking through.

Jay Zigmont: 32:19

And they're like, yeah, it changes everything. And I'm like you're right, it does. That's my point. But they never even thought of it and I was like how can that be? How can you have 20% of your population or 25% or whatever the number is that you're serving inappropriately? And the answer is I've gotta stick them into my software, I've gotta stick them into my plan that I have, my structure I have and it's not really individualized, that it doesn't match the clients.

Sheri Johnson: 32:46

Yeah, Well, and I'm so. I mean even for whether you're child-free or childless or parent. I think there's even then there's some boxes that were put in, like you're supposed to spend your whole life saving and then retire at 65. And then you live off your savings and you give the rest away before you die or when you die in your will. And even that, like you said something on another podcast that really it actually inspired me to do something different.

Sheri Johnson: 33:23

I think you I can't remember your exact words, but it was something around you know, what do you actually want in your life now? And spend some money on that. Like, if you wanna to run a business or start a business, you know, spend some money on that. Spend your, you know, enjoy your life now. And it sort of inspired me to. I've been thinking about making this one particular investment in my business and I was sort of like, why am I not? Like I'm like, oh, I've got my savings over there, but that's for retirement. Well, I don't even know if I wanna retire. I like what I do and I do I really need to save that much for retirement, like, maybe if I'm gonna work through part of my retirement or all of it. I don't know, maybe I take some of that, those savings, and spend it on my business now.

Jay Zigmont: 34:15

Well, and you know I serve people in the US and that's just because of regulatory reasons. You know, finance is very very good.

Jay Zigmont: 34:22

But I think there's some overarching themes that help us in the child free community or from the childless and one most people I talk to probably 90% don't care how much they pass on to the next generation. So the way I say it is my nephew's get what's left over. If they get 10,000 or 100,000, I'm okay. If they get a million dollars, I probably messed up. I probably should have given that to him earlier or given it, I should have spent it or something. So we don't wanna give money at the end and most don't wanna do a classic retirement, you know, like they don't wanna do the on off switch for work. So we talk about it as file finance, finance, live early and the dimmer switch.

Sheri Johnson: 34:58

Say that again. So what's what's up Financial?

Jay Zigmont: 35:00

independence. Live early, so here's how this works.

Jay Zigmont: 35:03

You just? You just described it, which is I don't care about passing money to the next generation, so I should invest in me and in my life and my happiness and then do the well. It's selfish, I don't care like, call it selfish, I don't get your money. You can do whatever you want with your money. You earned it. You do whatever you want. But are you saying, hey, should I invest in me and my business, my interest? Yes, why? Because it brings you happiness. You know I talk about Marie Kondo. In your life, you do more of the things that bring you joy and you get rid of the things that don't. People go well, but I need to retire. No, you don't. You know people come to me and you go what age can I retire? I'm like do you want to? They say no. Well then, why are you asking me when are you retired?

Sheri Johnson: 35:41

Yeah.

Jay Zigmont: 35:42

But it's just these things we're stuck with. Yeah, you know you're a great example, you. You'll probably do something related to your business for most of your life, until you can't.

Sheri Johnson: 35:52

Is that fair? Probably, yeah, cool, then why are you planning on retiring? That's how I feel now. I mean, I don't know, Maybe when I hit 65, I'll feel differently and or whatever 70 or 80. I don't know, I might feel differently later, but right now, yeah, I feel like I really like what I do and I'm that's going to evolve, but I'm ultimately making myself happier, but as well as the people that I'm serving, so why would I stop doing that?

Jay Zigmont: 36:21

Well, and if you want to fully retire, cool, make that your financial plan. But what happens for most child free folks is you can actually pick a job you enjoy. So therefore, you're like it's okay. You know, I have some discussion with somebody yesterday and they're making a very nice salary but they want to do something that has more of an impact in the world. I said, cool, you could take a third of that salary and still be okay. And by like, culturally that's a bad thing. You know, like going down in salary. That seems like if you're happier making less and you can make your ends meet, do it. Yeah, because running up the scoreboard of just higher net worth is not helping.

Jay Zigmont: 37:00

I actually spend more time talking to my clients about spending money than saving money. I love that. How do you actually spend it? You know I joke about. It's true, though. A lot of my child free folks have what I call the blueberry problem. They've been really good at saving money over time and they buy the frozen blueberries because they're a dollar cheaper than the fresh blueberries and I'm like just buy the damn blueberries, You're fine. You're laughing, sherry, because you probably have a similar blueberry habit.

Sheri Johnson: 37:27

Oh, absolutely I do, and it's hard to break that habit. But yeah, I go into the grocery store and I compare I was just telling somebody about this yesterday. I'm looking at this versus this, and it's only recently that I've kind of forced myself to stop and think what do I really want, like, do I want the fresh blueberries or do I want the frozen berries and Just go with what I want?

Jay Zigmont: 37:55

Well, yeah, and that's the thing you know. Eventually you get to a point where you save so much money it's hard to spend it.

Jay Zigmont: 38:02

So you have to give it away and do even things and I'm like well, instead, what if you, earlier in your life, enjoyed your life, invested in you? Invest in. You know, I got people going back to school. I got people taking a sabbatical. I had somebody she was working a state job, very stable, loved it. She was actually my podcast. She took a six month sabbatical, not sure what she was going to do. In the end she wrote a novel and she's working on publishing it and she's going to go try to be an artist, an author, for a few years and her way of working with authors is you either make a lot of money or no money. There's like nothing in between. It's like so I worked, but she's enjoying it.

Jay Zigmont: 38:36

And that's the thing you get. You know, the blueberries are just a symptom of this and you know I had somebody. Well, I always want to extra that one more margarita and I'm like, well, buy it. Like seriously, it's not going to hurt your finances, like, but I was taught to save, but I've got to save for a rainy day and I'm like, you're fine, go enjoy your life. Now there are still people that are struggling and you know this may sound, you know, a little off to them, but you know, for many you get to a point in your life you're like I've paid for we call it rent and ramen you pay for your house, pay for food, you're doing fine. Now you get to choose a different life.

Sheri Johnson: 39:09

Yeah, so something you just said there I wanted to talk about there is this big I think big misconception about people who don't have kids, that we have all this disposable income and I want to. I think that is a myth I've had and yet it's one that parents really try hard to uphold because children are expensive and they are. But I think there are parents and families who are living in poverty, and there are parents and families with families who are living in extreme wealth, and there is also the same for couples or people without children, Some living in poverty, some living in extreme wealth. Can you talk about? How can you help me dispel this misconception?

Jay Zigmont: 40:07

Yeah, whenever I do, I call it public facing media. So not to the child free community. This is actually one of those things I talk a lot about is, you know, there's no like magic money that comes flying in, you know, to the child free folks and make them rich. And here's the data says the US census looked at adults over 55. They found that single childless women had the highest net worth, but it was only by like a couple thousand dollars and it was not statistically significant over the next group, which, which was five. And that's, I believe, actually part of that's because we don't have a goal of raising our net worth over time, you know, like we want to give it away or or not necessarily die with the most. But the other part of it is I actually dove deep into this and you know I did survey on this myself and worked in this Okay, millionaires, whatever. What I found was there's a small percentage, but that's like difference.

Jay Zigmont: 40:59

Child free folks have a little less debt than parents, not a lot, but a little less. But the income disparities are still there. You know I had something from my book, her, her big goal was she had moved from being on an air mattress to being on a regular mattress. You know, and the way I say it is for those child free folks, or child folks, they're barely making ends meet. They're barely keeping their heads above water. If they had a kid they would drown. They're right on that cusp, and I think what happens is, you know, my company's called child free wealth, and I joke, it's two taboo topics at once child free and wealth. And you know, right now, people don't want to talk about wealth, and that's okay. The reality check is we are all excited, we have some broken systems around income, around housing, and having kids are not not a huge difference.

Jay Zigmont: 41:50

I will say, though, I asked in my survey why people chose to be child free, and about 30% said because of finances, which is a different way of looking at it. And the other thing that I found and I have not, this is one of those like research topics that may take me five years to get to, or 10 or 15, I don't know, but there was a thread between people growing up in poverty and choosing to be child free, where they're like hey, I saw my parents struggle, I don't want to put a kid through that, which, by the way, I understand completely. I grew up broke. I mean I get that and what happens is there's this, there's this deep thought me going on whether or not I have kids and finance impact and all that. So I think that's some assumptions, but I think the judgment actually becomes because other people are struggling so they want somebody to put down.

Sheri Johnson: 42:41

Yeah, this, this, the that.

Jay Zigmont: 42:43

That's what I mean is it is that simple. It's like the same people say well, you'll regret it. I much rather regret not having kids than regret having kids. Like you. There's parental regret. About 14% of parents have admitted parental regret, you know, and they don't want to admit that. So they judge us for regret, they judge us for money. But just Okay, they're really talking about that. Yes, they're not really talking about a percent. I will tell you, though I don't always, you know, have the thickest skin to deal with that, you accept. I'm one of those like. I'm out there defending the community anytime anyone says any of this stuff and I have a little bit of a close judgment. I had a financial. We were in a financial conference and somebody said, well, for people without kids, getting getting divorced is not as bad, and I was like, hold on, that is so much judgment. You just threw in there yeah, no clue. Yeah, you know it's different.

Jay Zigmont: 43:33

It's not better or worse you know, and these are the types of judgments that we just have to deal with, that we have to remember. It's not about us, but I'm not great at remembering that myself.

Sheri Johnson: 43:46

That's such a good point and it's something that I talk. I mean, I talk a lot about this stuff on the podcast, in my programs, on my social media that really, when someone else is triggered by our situation or the hateful comments or the you know the per, I had somebody, I had a. I accidentally sent an email out. I have two parts of my list. I have my parents and my non-parents and I accidentally sent an email out about pronatalism to some women who were on the parent list and got one person respond back and it was.

Sheri Johnson: 44:28

I could read that email and just say, oh my gosh, you are in pain. So you're lashing out at me because you're feeling the pain and the struggle of not having, you know, maybe not having quite enough money to make ends meet, or maybe not as much as she would like she was making ends meet as much as she would like to live the life she really dreamed of. And she said my sister is married, they don't have kids and they have a cottage and they're doing all these things. And I could just look at her and think that is not about me at all, that is all about her, and I'm just gonna hold space for that and throw it back at her to say, like what exactly? Like where is this coming from? And evaluate your own situation. And what are you? You know? Why are you feeling this? Because it really is all about them. When you get those people who are triggered, who are parents about our scenario, it's always them. Yet we, you know we can react to it as well.

Jay Zigmont: 45:36

Well, and I don't think they're looking at the full picture either. So one of the ones often gets. So who's gonna take care of when you're older? You know I hate that question. I think I kind of love. Hate because it's I love, because I can talk about it, but I hate the question because there's a lot of implications there. And here's what the data says. The data says and this is US Census data again adults over 55, childless folks 2.5% are getting any financial support from family. So that's like nothing. Yeah, what? In the same 55 and older adults, parents 1.5% are getting any support from their family.

Sheri Johnson: 46:10

Yeah, interesting.

Jay Zigmont: 46:11

So when they assume, somebody's gonna take care of them. They're wrong they're not, they're just wrong and that's where. But they judge us and I'm like you need to look at the data, because the data says you're just as messed up as we are.

Sheri Johnson: 46:25

So I have a question for you on that, actually.

Sheri Johnson: 46:28

So, parents aside, so if you think about the people who so I have this theory or it's, I don't know, it's maybe just a question or hypothesis I'm coming up with the people who chose not to have children don't really seem to be as bothered by that question, because they're already in a space where, I think, maybe where they've made the choice and they're like I'm gonna take care of me when I'm, when I get older, and that's kind of where I come from.

Sheri Johnson: 46:59

But I know that a lot of women who did not or maybe this applies to men as well, I've only talked to women about this that question really triggers them and I think a lot of them sort of get to this point where they suddenly realize, oh, this is the end of the road, I'm never gonna have kids. And then suddenly that question I think they're asking that question themselves who's gonna actually take care of me when I'm old? And so then that question also triggers them. Do you see, like, have you noticed there's a difference between how people react to that question when, like, based on their whether they've chosen that life or it's been, you know, they've fallen into it somehow.

Jay Zigmont: 47:47

I think I would go a little bit bigger with your hypothesis and here's what I find. So the way I look at it is your finances change when you have decided kids are never gonna be in the picture. Now that can be by choice or not by choice. If you are still in the grieving process or working through, you know, am I gonna be permanently childless or not? I don't think looking at child-free finances is the way to go. I think it's. Actually you should still look at the standard plan until you've come to the point where you're like, hey, I've accepted, I'm at a point where I'm looking at my new life, now I can work on it. The people that are struggling as you are, as you're talking about, who's gonna take care of you older? My feeling and this is purely my feeling, so you know you can throw it away is they have not finished the grieving process for the life they thought they were gonna live.

Jay Zigmont: 48:35

And it's kind of that part of that acceptance process, of this is a different life. Once you get to the acceptance process, you know, and I'll talk to people when they reach out to me like hey, you know, I'm still going through or I'm still debating, where I'm gonna like I'm not right for you. You know, come to me when you are ready and you're through the process and I'm saying that out of love, because you're not ready to have these conversations.

Sheri Johnson: 48:59

And.

Jay Zigmont: 49:00

I think what happens? Those people that well, I'm not gonna have kids, so I have to decide on this. No, you got some time like seriously, breathe, you're fine. You have to be good yourself before you can make these different choices on your life and your finances. You know the way I say it is for child-free folks. We figure out your life first, then your finances, then your taxes. But we can only do that when you are now like, okay, I'm ready for my on-core life or whatever it is that new life plan. If you're still grieving, it's hard. I mean there's I can't speed that up for you, I can't help you accept it. You have to do the work on that, you know, I know you work with people on that and help them through that, but it's, it's honestly. It just takes time and work. You know, and that might be what you're seeing.

Sheri Johnson: 49:49

No, I totally agree with you. So, yes, and that's actually. Yeah, that's exactly how I've set up my program. I mean, we the end is kind of reimagining and you know what brings you joy. Let's go back and tap into that. But you can't do that until you've let go of some of that grief. It's just you're just in the thick of it and you have to be able to free up some of that space in order to start thinking about the future and reimagining that. And I think finances is part of that. So I think you're absolutely right.

Sheri Johnson: 50:26

You do need to at least get a little bit of the way through that grieving process before you can start to think about okay, I really am going to be permanently childless, and what does that look like from? What do I want to bring into my life? And, like you said you might not have even said this to me, I think I heard you say it on another podcast You're as much a life planner as a financial planner. Like you can't imagine what you want to bring into your life financially or physically or hobby wise. You can't even tap into what brings you joy anymore when you're in that grieving process. So, yeah, when you get through some of that, then you can start thinking about what do I really want and what am I going to spend my time and my money on?

Jay Zigmont: 51:22

Absolutely. We've been researching this child-free finance for quite a while. I'm trying to dive deeper and deeper into it. I have the benefit that I get to talk to hundreds of people about their finances and dig in. It's interesting. People don't always want to share their finances, but once you start talking about their life and finances you learn a lot of stuff. What I've learned is there's a lot of people being mistreated by other financial planners who don't understand child-free or makes it without assumptions. One of the things I found we created a program we call the 8 no Baby Steps for Child-Free Folks. It's a financial planning process. We had this debate. Well, there's no baby steps. Good term, bad term. We're actually poking fun at it. There's a baby steps program. We're kind of going the opposite.

Jay Zigmont: 52:07

Someone from the Permanent Childless Society was like hey, what do you think? The answer was, if the term bothers you, you're not ready for the 8, no Baby Steps. I was like, ooh, that's that kind of hit me hard. You know when you're ready or not. I had somebody you're talking about Jody Day, and they were part of Jody's community. Katie's doing that community. They were talking about, hey, early on there's a lot of talk about not using the term child-free. Now you're seeing more people embracing it and working on different things. I'm good with all of that. You know where you are in your life. You know when you're ready for things. Yeah, From a financial people, people are like, well, I have to fix this now.

Jay Zigmont: 52:52

Just stay out of debt, do the good things and we can fix the rest later. We'll figure out your long-term care plan. We'll figure that out when you're ready. And I think what's happening is you're seeing it and I have about a third of my initial meetings with clients.

Jay Zigmont: 53:09

People cry and I had to do a little soul searching like what's going on? I think what it is. They feel like they were heard, they feel like they're represented, they feel like there's somebody that understands them and there's this moment of going okay, we can work on a new plan. This fits me, I get it, yeah, and that is. There's a cathartic part to that of just like yep, I got it Versus the judgment. You know I joke, but it's true. You should always ask your financial planner how's your life, how's your plan different because you're child-free. And if they say it's not different, you walk out. If they say you're going to change your mind, you walk out. You know, if they say I don't know, that's actually an okay answer. They can figure that out. But I think what happens is we as a community, the whole community, need to be there to support each other and we need to realize we're all at different places.

Jay Zigmont: 54:03

You know we're a different place in life and just because I'm good with it doesn't mean you are vice versa, and we all have good and bad days. You know, my mother-in-law is still saving baby clothes on the off chance we're going to have kids. I'm like it's not happening. Okay, but you know, those things happen.

Sheri Johnson: 54:20

Yeah, yeah, there's, our parents grieve as well when we either decide not to have kids or can't for sure Something that you said in there. Just I think that women and maybe this happens with some of the men as well you know when they're looking for whether it's a financial planner or a therapist, or it doesn't really matter when they find a place not just where they're seen and heard, but where they're, it's a safe place for them to actually show that emotion. So then it does come up because they feel safe in an environment where they feel free to just talk about what's going on and then feel understood by someone who knows exactly what they're going through and can speak to their financial concerns.

Jay Zigmont: 55:22

Yeah, and I'm hoping at one point that there'll be a whole lot of people that understand how to work with childfree folks. You know I can only handle so many clients and you know I've done these type of podcasts or news things with people in all different countries around the world. I'm out there, you know. I have one guy in the UK starting to do some of this and trying to convince other people to make these safe spaces and understand how to work with us. And it's hard. You know it takes a lot of judgment. I mean, I went to buy some software for my company and they asked that who do you work with? I said childfree people said oh, you hate kids. I'm like, no and like. But that's a judgment that jumps out.

Jay Zigmont: 56:00

Yeah, you know, and I'm trying to make it a safe space, to talk about it, to discuss it, to work through it, and finance is very old fashioned and very slow, so it takes a long time to change people. But I think the only thing we can do is just keep talking about it and support each other. And yeah, why I created my firm, that's why I'm trying to teach people and you know you're the same way. You've got a passion. You're working on it. You're working on helping the same folks and my hope is, over time, that's going to grow. It's just a matter of when.

Sheri Johnson: 56:34

Well, and I think it will. I think you know the number of podcasts that you're interviewing on. You know there's going to be people in my audience and those audiences who are childfree or childless women, women without kids, men without kids I don't know how many men listen to my podcast at the moment, but somebody who has a financial planning background and lives in Canada or lives in some other country where losing the States, and is inspired by what you're doing, and I think you have a very full practice, am I right?

Jay Zigmont: 57:12

Yeah, we're actually at our capacity right now and we're looking to hire people, and I'll tell you an interesting side note. So I posted last week to hire somebody else and join the RT. We're building what we call childfree wealth specialists and I asked in your cover letter explain why do you want to serve childfree people? Hmm, and it's been a great screening question. Yes, I know I ignore it. Some people don't answer it and then others are like here's why and interestingly enough, I'm interviewing all the ones that gave me a real reason. But I was amazed by the amount of people that said hey, you know I want to serve this population that you're serving and you know the way you're serving it. I got people that are changing careers. They're willing to take pay cuts to serve the childfree folks because, they're seeing the passion around.

Jay Zigmont: 57:58

So I think we're going to build a little of an army that you know does this, but it was really enlightening to see people want to serve. They just can't find the places or the ways to do it. And I saw that and I was like when you post a job post and you're always worried like nobody's going to answer. You know it's one of those. Like you know, whatever you throw a party and nobody shows up.

Jay Zigmont: 58:18

Yeah, but I had huge response and I'm like awesome, that means we're doing something right. I don't know what it is, but we're doing something right.

Sheri Johnson: 58:26

Yep, no, I absolutely think you are and I know you are and I do think that you know, especially women, men. However, you identify people who are childless or childfree. They, especially if they didn't choose it I shouldn't say especially it doesn't really matter whether they've chosen it or not. They get to a point where they do want to serve others. I mean, I got to that point where, you know, as soon as I got through some of my grief, I immediately wanted to share what I learned and how I was able to help like how I was able to do it and then help others.

Sheri Johnson: 59:11

And I think most people, or many people, want to do that. They want to serve others in some way and their journey is what leads them to that. You know it's whatever you've experienced. You somehow take that and serve others who are going through it. For you it's finance, for me it's the grief part of it, for someone else it's a different thing, but it's. I don't know what I'm trying to say anymore. I just think that when you come through something, you look for a way to serve others in that same way. Whatever you've learned, you want to teach it to others, and I think that's common.

Jay Zigmont: 59:55

I think it is common to an extent. I think some people have the ability to do it. You know we're talking about whether or not you have the financial process. I think the one I've been working on right now and I've finally come in a solution is in the US is a big issue of who can make decisions for you when you're older. So who's your medical power attorney, your financial power attorney, all this and I've been for two years working on this problem and I've been talking to everyone and anyone, every company I could find, and I think I actually found a solution.

Jay Zigmont: 1:00:24

We're going to actually creating a new company to do this and some other things, but it's like something that like keeps me up at night of who is going to be the person to pull the plug on me, like who's the person who, like, makes that decision, who's the person that decides if I go on a home and there's a whole bunch of legal leads around it in the US. It's a nightmare, but it like keeps me up at night literally, and I went to a bunch of companies, I talked about it and once again, somebody in their late sixties and said, well, I hear what you're saying, I get the market. I get what's going on. I have no clue how to do it and I'm like, okay, but how we fix it. You know, and those are the things that we as a community can do.

Jay Zigmont: 1:01:07

To give back is help figure out these solutions, figure out ways to help each other. You know, I have people that want to start like Golden Girls communities, where they're going to do like a whole bunch of single childless women to live together and what awesome, like those things. What do I call a service, or just giving back or whatever it is. I think you're going to see more of that. We just have to let it play out.

Sheri Johnson: 1:01:28

Yeah, absolutely so, jay. We're we're coming up to an hour, I think, here, and I feel like there was so many other things that I wanted to ask you about. Maybe, in terms of wrapping up, I could ask you. So you're based in the US, but there's I have a fairly international audience. What are some of the universal tips that you would share for childless people who are listening to the podcast? Some of those those tips for specifically us, on how to manage our finances, how to approach it, whatever, Yep.

Jay Zigmont: 1:02:10

So the first thing is start with your life first, then your finances and, by the way, that that sounds like semantics but it's a completely different way of thinking. You even you're a great example at you know, if you don't have to retire, you don't have to buy a house, you don't have to buy somebody in next generation. Once you take those assumptions out, your whole plan will change. And I think the biggest advice I can give people kind of universal is make sure your plan matches you, not the norm, not what somebody says you have to do. And if you're getting a good financial advice but realize it may not fit you, yeah, and there's a lot of stuff that I do.

Jay Zigmont: 1:02:48

You know you can listen and we have the child free wealth podcast. We talk about generic topics and life and all that that can help. Taxes are all going to be different. You know there's certain things Like this longterm care question. Who's going to make decisions for it? Big difference country by country. But you need a solution. Yeah, you need to be thinking through these things and you need to be having the conversations. I think the other thing, as a generality, is, I will say find your community, find people like you that can talk about it, because finances nobody wants to talk about. But if you can start talking about your finances and say, hey, this is what I'm doing with a child for you or childless folks, they'll go oh, this is what I'm doing, yeah, you can have some ideas that work within your community.

Sheri Johnson: 1:03:29

Yeah, yeah. And I think I would add something you said earlier was to ask you know, when you're searching for a financial planner I think you said you know ask them what does what is a plan for a child free person look like? And if they say, well, it looks just like this, and if it's the same as the parents plan, then maybe that isn't the right financial planner for you. And you know, keep asking that question until you find the person who at least says I don't know, but let's figure out what that looks like for you and I and that person is open to. Okay, it might look different than this other plan.

Jay Zigmont: 1:04:11

And the one that says I don't know. You know, feel free to give me my contact info, cause I've worked with a lot of people in other countries and I'm like, okay, let me give you. Yeah, so we have a, there's a blog for financial planners. I'm like, give me some of the nerdy financial stuff and I'll give them to them and they can translate it to their country.

Jay Zigmont: 1:04:26

You know like a great example is life insurance Not a big priority for child free folks but a big priority for parents If they're pushing life insurance on you? Probably not. You need, you need disability insurance. You know you need to make sure those things are set. And you know, usually a good financial planner that understands hey, there might be differences can look up and go what is different? The ones I worry about, the ones that make assumptions all you will change your mind or it's the same. That is just bad to the point where I've had people get like burnt by that and you know either bad advice or you know follow that advice or just say, hey, I can't, I can never work with a financial planner because they don't understand me. So give it another shot. But you know you need to find one that that gets you.

Sheri Johnson: 1:05:10

Yeah, and I think, even just by listening to this podcast, like I've already had some things where I'm like oh I, I didn't think to ask my financial planner that, and maybe I should think about this, and I think it at least gives people a little bit of something so that they know what questions to ask. They don't need the answers when they go to a financial planner that's what they're for but they can at least ask some questions to be able to evaluate. Is this the right person for me? Are they asking the right questions? Are they open to? Okay, I don't know, but I'm going to find out. I think that's. Those are the keys. You just need to have someone who's willing to say I don't know what, I don't know yet.

Jay Zigmont: 1:05:53

Absolutely. And what I also find is there are planners who themselves are child-free, but the company they're at does not understand it. But they do Right. That's a win, like I'm good with that yeah, as far as I know, I'm the only firm that's completely dedicated to but I'm okay, like if you find you know so-and-so as a financial planner and they're living this life and they have an idea, cool, like we've won half the battle. And I think, as a community, the other thing we can do if you find somebody like that is share it, you know in your community.

Jay Zigmont: 1:06:24

If you know somebody, whatever it is, you work with them, share it, say hey, I have a resource.

Sheri Johnson: 1:06:30

And what?

Jay Zigmont: 1:06:30

happens with financial planners is people usually really reach out to us when there's a problem or like something's changed in their life or you know. But if they have a name I know I can go through so-and-so when all that's lost.

Sheri Johnson: 1:06:41

Yeah, I love it. So we didn't even talk about your book. Let's just give us, like the two-second or the 30-second elevator pitch, what your book is about and where to get it. Let's do that first.

Jay Zigmont: 1:06:57

So I'll make it even easier on you ChildFreeWealthcom slash book you can get a free copy of my book Quartz to ChildFreeWealth. It's a series of stories of people sharing what their life is like, which I think is helpful because we can see we're not that weird Like. We're weird within, like the big community, but within our community we all have a lot of the same struggles.

Sheri Johnson: 1:07:19

We do Like, yeah, we do, and we're so say the website again ChildFreeWealthcom.

Jay Zigmont: 1:07:29

ChildFreeWealthcom slash book is the book. You can also catch me on any of the you know Instagram or socials ChildFreeWealth. Not on Twitter because I'm not supporting the gentleman you were talking about. Yeah, and you can always check out the ChildFreeWealth podcast. You know we put an episode every week talking about life experiences.

Sheri Johnson: 1:07:48

Perfect, I'm going to link all those up in the show notes. Jay, it has really been enlightening for me this conversation and I'm sure my listeners are going to get so much out of it. Thank you so much for joining.

Jay Zigmont: 1:08:01

Thanks for having me.

Sheri Johnson: 1:08:05

That was great. Thank you so much. I think you covered a couple of different things too that I didn't hear you talk about on some other podcasts, which is always awesome, just for variety, because I know people will like, the challenge is always who's asking which questions?

Jay Zigmont: 1:08:21

Yeah, if you get different questions, you get different answers.

Sheri Johnson: 1:08:26

Yeah, well, I was curious about whether, yeah, like, depending on the podcast, you're going on to like, if it's a group I heard you on, I think it's called ChildFreeGirls you know, preparation for that podcast. Is that different than mine, given that we're kind of on different ends of that spectrum?

Jay Zigmont: 1:08:49

Yes, it don't. So when you're working with anyone in the childless community, you have to have an awareness of the grief process and what's going on in many people's lives. So I always couch things a little differently. I think the more interesting ones is I've been working with a bunch of financial podcasts and I had one the other day that was like downright argumentative and he had seven kids and it was like it was rough and you can see the pro-native bias. By the end he was like okay, I get where you're coming from. He didn't agree with it but like you know, and I think, within the child free, childless community, we're all. We're not that far apart. Let's be real on that.

Sheri Johnson: 1:09:34

We might have different terms or different structures.

Jay Zigmont: 1:09:37

The stuff I do, like you know, I'm doing global mail tomorrow. Yeah, I expect different things.

Sheri Johnson: 1:09:42

Yeah for sure. Yeah, I'm learning that, particularly within the people without kids community. We're not that different. You know even some women who make the choice you know you were talking about another podcast like the women, the couples. I'm so used to talking to women. I'm always saying women instead of people or everybody. The people who make a choice, maybe for because they don't have the finances or because of the environment. You know they're making a choice to be child free, but there's still some grief there, or could be, and there's still. You know Spencer had reimagined Lucy. She often goes off on the really annoying comments and things that people say and gets on her soapbox and to me that's that is the same. Those are the same triggers that we all have and that's pronatalism telling us that we're not as worthy.

Sheri Johnson: 1:10:47

So it's the same thing with you.

Jay Zigmont: 1:10:51

My new favorite is I go into the financial ones and I pick one or two things that they buy. The bias comes out and I'll call them out on it. So I had some of the other day and said, well, how do you play when you don't have a family? I was like, oh you did like it.

Jay Zigmont: 1:11:06

I'm like let's talk about that word you just used because we have a family, is a different family. And I said I got to call you out on that bias and he was like you're in my podcast. But then he was like you're right, yeah, I didn't think about the language I'm using in the you know and you don't have that in the child free pocket, but you have that in the general ones. So what I've been doing is finding one of those to challenge in every podcast there's always something they'll always something stupid.

Jay Zigmont: 1:11:38

You know, I had somebody at one of our conferences working with people without kids is the worst and I'm like all right, I would say that yeah so I'll pull these out and I'll pull each podcast.

Jay Zigmont: 1:11:53

Essentially, it's gotten a point where, like I feel like I'm almost trapping them, but I'm not like they're just doing it to themselves and I'm like let's talk about that language. You know, you were calling out. You know women versus, you know couples, or I call the language, and then people like oh, I didn't realize, and I'm like yep, and then the end of the end of the recording, they're like thanks for calling out. I didn't realize, you know, but what? Yeah, and I think we have to do that to make it more acceptable.

Sheri Johnson: 1:12:25

Yeah, I think you're right, and the more, like you said, the more we talk about it, the more, the more people start to realize there is a difference, and this is this is a minority group within the greater population that actually is often overlooked and not considered, whether it's financial planning or the multitude of other things that we do in the world. Like it's yeah, the more we talk about it, the better.

Jay Zigmont: 1:12:53

Yep, I think my challenge and maybe you can figure it out is we need to figure out some universal term for non parents not having kids, whatever the word is, and we as a community need to use that regularly, rather than fighting over the terms and the structures and the descent you know and just you know. We need to be open about it and proud about it and share it. I just don't think, I don't think we have the language yet to do it.

Sheri Johnson: 1:13:24

Well that. So yeah, you're going to get me on my soapbox here To me. If there's someone who's offended, it's because you've hit, you've just pressed on a wound that is already there. You know when. If there's someone who thinks they are or feel like they've labeled themselves childless because they didn't make a choice and you call them child free, if they're triggered by that, that's because they're judging the child free life and they, you know, we got to get under that because I did that.

Sheri Johnson: 1:13:58

I didn't realize it was so subconscious, unconscious, that I had that judgment, but I did like suddenly I realized one day I don't even know what prompted it, but I was like, wait a second, I do kind of buy into this thing that people who choose not to have kids are kind of weird and kind of selfish, or like I had to really look at my own, my own judgments and then I could start to make a actually fully embrace my child free life. And if we keep like, yes, I agree, it would be great to come up with some universal term that would just apply to everybody. But the fact that we're bothered by these different terms means that we just need to heal, because once you heal, you don't care whether you're, it doesn't matter, because all of those labels are just based on what everybody else, what is everybody else going to think of me if? If I call myself child free? That's what that's about.

Jay Zigmont: 1:15:03

I think my favorite part was last year the child free convention had a session on the term child free and then Katie Sepio, over and chasing creation, had a session on child less as a term. Like we're still within the communities, even still have it, and I'm like, yeah, all right, we're, we're, we're not there yet, you know, and you know the new legacy Institute, you know, is doing their stuff and they're, they're trying to help people, are non parents and like there's all different terms.

Sheri Johnson: 1:15:27

Yeah.

Jay Zigmont: 1:15:28

And I think the challenges we need to. We need to start talking to people outside our community. The online communities for child free and childless are very small. They are true. I mean, it's not a representative statement. The biggest influencers in that community, I mean, may have 100,000 people. Yeah, it's nothing.

Jay Zigmont: 1:15:50

Yeah it's true, you know. So we need to be talking about. That's why I do a lot of press, and I did one with Wall Street Journal and somebody called me and said hey, this is me. I didn't know this term meant me and I need you to help. That's the people we need to get to.

Sheri Johnson: 1:16:07

Yeah, and that's gosh. I feel like we just keep talking here and I've taken up already so much of your time. That's. It's very true.

Sheri Johnson: 1:16:15

There's lots of people, even in the you know, who didn't choose to be at someone's say to me the other day. She's single. She's like, well, I didn't go through infertility, I didn't go, and I'm like, well, you still are a woman without kids, so you, you fit, your, you can be a part of this community. And she was like but I don't belong. And I was kind of like it doesn't like, belong, not belong, doesn't matter. If you're grieving, you're welcome to be here. Or if you whatever, if you don't have kids, you're welcome to be here. Whatever little niche within the whole childless, child free community, you're, you're fitting in. Yeah, anyway, thank you so much. I took up way more time than I had thought, so I appreciate that. And, yeah, let's see this is actually coming out really quick. I am a little behind on my podcast episodes here, so I think this is actually going to come out Monday and I would be forever grateful if you would share it with your community. I'll send you some graphics in the case that you want to use those on Instagram.

Jay Zigmont: 1:17:28

To be honest, I don't do my social media whatever Brie says, but I will send it to her like send it to her yeah. I don't mess with her system, just kind of like there's one thing I don't want to do in life and that's social media. Like I hate social media.

Sheri Johnson: 1:17:42

I'm with you.

Jay Zigmont: 1:17:44

I would do nothing with it, but yeah.

Sheri Johnson: 1:17:47

Yeah, no, I'm totally with you. It's a bane of my existence.

Jay Zigmont: 1:17:51

Send it to me and I will send it to her and she will put it on whatever. She has a whole system and I've learned I don't mess with it.

Sheri Johnson: 1:17:58

Perfect.

Jay Zigmont: 1:17:59

Yeah, she tells me when I do what, and it is the best relationship, so yeah, that's awesome. Well, thanks for having me on and you know it's good questions. The hard part is digging in, and you know you're right. A lot of podcasts sell similar because people ask different questions.

Sheri Johnson: 1:18:15

Yeah, yes, yeah, I love it. Well, thanks again, and it was great meeting you, jay, We'll talk to you soon.

Jay Zigmont: 1:18:23

Nice to meet. You have a good day, bye.

Sheri Johnson: 1:18:24

Bye.