141: The Secret to Setting Guilt-Free Boundaries as a Childless Woman

Most women think that if they just knew what to say to set a boundary, aka say "no", they will start doing it. That's actually what's keeping them from getting time back for what they really want.

The media conversations about setting boundaries are reinforcing this belief, and missing a critical piece that is stopping women from setting them. 

First, they tell you that you should set better boundaries. That's not helpful because most women already know they should, but either think it's unrealistic or have been unable to do so.

The information out there also tends to be about the practical side of setting boundaries, like what to say or do, such as blocking your calendar for personal time.

The problem is that none of this works if you have emotions or beliefs that stop you from setting the boundary in the first place, or overthinking and spinning with guilt after you do set one.

So, my sister, Jen, who is an expert on burnout and boundaries, is talking with me about the secrets to finally setting boundaries- without guilt.

We dig into:

• the other boundaries beyond saying "no": the overlooked boundaries that protect your peace. 
• The fears and emotions that stop you from setting a boundary
• Boundaries for childless women
• Why setting boundaries is so crucial to being a great leader

We leave you with 5 steps to maintaining stronger boundaries. 

If you are stressed, over-committed and tired, releasing the emotions keeping you from honouring your boundaries is one way to find peace and ease at work and in life. 

If you want to start setting healthier boundaries and sticking to them, join our virtual mini-retreat! 

Get all the information here: Guilt-Free Boundaries Virtual Retreat

Find Jen on instagram: @jenreimerleadership

Where to find Sheri:
Instagram: @sherijohnsoncoaching
Website: sherijohnson.ca

Transcript

@20:27 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Something that keeps coming up so often within my Women of Worth group for Childish Women, with my audience, my clients, is how to set and actually maintain better boundaries.

And what I have found is that there is so much information these days about setting boundaries. And getting self-care.

And the information, 90% of the time, is either that you should set better boundaries, or it's about the practical side of it, like what to say to set better boundaries, what to do to block time in your calendar, don't apologize.

But what is missing from those conversations is how to get over the emotions that so many of us feel that either stop us from honoring the boundary, or it has us spinning and feeling guilty after we've said it.

So what I've learned is that no amount of willpower or information about what to say actually helped me to set better boundaries.

And no amount of reframing it helped that. What I did know is that I was stretched too thin, and that I was going to be more successful, I was going to be Thank

So what we're doing today, I'm going to talk to my sister, Jen, who is a leader. We'll get into more of her bio in a second, but she's going to help me to really dive into the emotions, not the boundary itself, and how we can begin to honor our boundaries without feeling bad about them.

So if that sparks your interest, stay tuned. Welcome back to the Awakening Worth podcast, and welcome if you are a first-time listener.

I'm really glad that you found me, and I hope you'll stick around. Today, I'm really excited to have my sister, Jen, back again.

So Jen Reimer is her name, Jennifer Reimer. She's my twin sister, and she is a divine leadership, divine feminine leadership.

Who helps women to lead grace from their more feminine side in what is a very masculine world. And one of the things that she is an expert on is how to actually set boundaries that you'll keep and boundaries that you will not feel guilty and go down that spinning rabbit hole afterwards about disappointment.

So welcome, Jen. I'm really excited to have you here again. And as usual, I love these conversations. So let's dive in.

@23:41 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Thanks. I love talking about this stuff. So any chance I get, I'll take it.

@23:47 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. Okay. So I'm thinking we start with, um, what even is a boundary?

@23:56 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Okay. So I'm thinking, a lot of us Let's think about it as just what we say no to, but it's a lot more than that.

So let me just give you a definition to start with, and then we'll talk about all the different ways that boundaries come up in our lives.

So a simple definition is just a boundary is a limit that we set to protect our property, our time, or our emotional, mental, and physical well-being.

@24:26 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

That makes sense.

@24:28 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah, and they're so important because when we actually draw them and respect them, they create space for us to operate and to meet our own needs in relationship with others.

@24:41 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yes, I think that's a key part is we don't need boundaries if we're the only ones in the world.

This is all about relationships.

@24:52 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah.

@24:57 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

So what are some of the ways, like, I think. ways, what like, what The way that I have, until recently, thought about boundaries was, okay, I'm setting a boundary around my time, so I'm not doing that, I'm not doing this, which is like, okay, I'm not going to do that volunteer thing that somebody asked me to do, or I'm actually not going to go to that event that I don't have, that I'm going to, that I know I will feel like it's too packed of a weekend if I do go.

And it's saying, and saying to people, that's like, to me, that was, that was a boundary. It's whenever I need to say no to someone, that's when I'm setting a boundary.

But I think now there's so many other points in our life where we actually need boundaries that we're not even recognizing.

So can we start with some of those?

@26:00 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah, I think saying, so saying no, or what you want to say no to is the easiest way to, not to find a boundary, but to, to sort of observe where you need to be setting boundaries or, or should be setting better boundaries, or healthier boundaries.

@26:23 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

And that's a way of identifying, identifying a boundary is coming into play here.

@26:31 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yes. So it's what I want to do, what I don't want to do, and what I want to say no to, and what I want to say yes to.

And so that's the easiest way. Like, I don't want to go to that party. I don't want to go.

So I'm going to say no to that.

@26:48 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

So that's the easiest way to think about it. You just said something interesting though, that I hadn't really thought about.

And that is, and what do I want to say yes to? So sometimes we want to say yes to something.

But we feel like, I have something else in the way, or I'm like, that's going to disappoint somebody else.

Or, I don't know, like, we think of it as no, but it's also yes.

@27:14 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yes. That's a really good point. We often, we want to say yes to something, and we hold ourselves back.

And that's actually where we are. It's about setting boundaries, but it's about setting appropriate boundaries. Like, sometimes we set boundaries for ourselves that aren't necessarily appropriate.

So, I can't say yes to that thing, because I have all these other things to do, because you haven't set boundaries over there.

@27:46 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. Yeah, there's always, it's two sides of the same coin.

@27:50 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Mm-hmm.

@27:52 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Mm-hmm. Okay. So, let's get into some of the things that people don't think about as a boundary. Or maybe let's start.

Start with the things that are maybe the more obvious things.

@28:04 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Okay, so yeah, I mean, the obvious things are saying, like, take your social situations first, saying no to a party, saying no to some sort of social engagement.

That's the easiest. It's like saying no to things you don't want to go to or you don't want to do.

But to go deeper, another one is leaving.

@28:35 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Setting a boundary.

@28:36 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Sorry?

@28:37 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

This is one I struggle with.

@28:39 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

I do too. Leaving on time, leaving early. You were just talking about an example of this.

@28:49 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah, can I talk about that? So I was just at my book club, and this particular person... The book club was held like a good half hour away from home.

So I knew I wanted to be home like no later than 10. And because that's like, I need my rest.

I've put a boundary around that. And normally, I actually drive to book club by myself so that I don't feel like I'm dragging somebody away or I know I can leave when I want to.

@29:24 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

And most people stay later than I do.

@29:25 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

So this particular book club, there was one of my friends I just didn't get a chance to talk to.

And so there were a few of us leaving at the same time. And she was in the car with the other girls and said, Oh, well, maybe can I come with you?

Because then we can have this 10 minutes to catch up when we haven't had that time to catch up.

And in my head, I was thinking, no, because I know what happens. We start talking. And then suddenly, you know, we're sitting at outside of her house in my car.

And 45 minutes have gone by. And now I'm getting home at it's not 10 anymore. It's, and this is exactly what happened.

I got home at closer to 11 because we did, and I didn't know how to say no. And I didn't maintain that boundary.

So I was afraid of hurting her feelings.

@30:18 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah. Hurting a relationship is one of the biggest fears that people have in setting boundaries.

@30:27 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. Yeah. Disappointing her. And really, if I had just made light of it and said, Lejeune, I know what's going to happen.

If you get in my car, we're going to start talking and we're, we're never going to stop. And she would have understood that I'm sure in hindsight, but in the moment, it wasn't that easy.

I had the overwhelming narrative was, oh my gosh, she's not going to be happy with me. I, if I, I'm going to hurt her feelings.

If I say no to this.

@30:55 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yes. And that, we're going to come back to that later because you've just gave a perfect example of how.

@31:00 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

I would just say no to a friend.

@31:02 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

I just make light of it and say, no, I know what's going to happen. We're going to, we're going to get home too late and I really need my sleep tonight.

But you can't, so you know how to say it. You don't need to memorize that.

@31:15 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. It's that feeling.

@31:17 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

It's that overwhelming feeling in the moment when your mind just clicks because you, it's like somebody, one of my clients called it, I get this deer in the headlights moment.

@31:26 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. When something just like clicks and then I just go, oh yeah, okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I can like tell myself, I can say no to this and it's okay all I want.

But when it comes down to the moment, the anxiety of that, it overwhelms you. You can't actually say what you practice saying.

@31:49 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah. So you've got to release those fears and emotions and the anxiety before you, and then actually practicing what to say or learning how to say it doesn't matter because you'll know.

@32:00 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. Yeah.

@32:01 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Okay.

@32:01 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

So generally though, so sorry, just to kind of broaden that leaving, I think there's a lot of guilt around leaving a social engagement early or, um, you know, and there's a lot of social pressure around that too.

Like as soon as you say, I'm going to go home, there's this, Oh, really? You're going to leave already?

@32:20 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah.

@32:21 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

And thankfully they don't do that at my book club. Um, because they know there's a few of us that need our rest and work early and get up early.

But I think that's common for like, there's so much social pressure and guilt trip guilt trips put on people.

@32:38 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah.

@32:39 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

That, that impact their ability to set the boundaries.

@32:44 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Absolutely. And actually it was, it was, um, another way that social pressure comes up. So this is a third way, I suppose, um, is a client just said to me this weekend, um, I feel pressure from friends.

pressure from Who say they never see me. And then they start to insinuate that she might use her friends.

Like they're going to, the friends start to kind of insinuate like, well, then we're not going to hang out with you anymore.

@33:15 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. And so she pushes herself and she goes to see them when she's actually so exhausted she needs to stay in bed.

Yeah.

@33:25 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

So that social pressure comes up a lot. And to go back to the leaving the party thing or leaving whatever, leaving anything.

@33:34 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah.

@33:35 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

start all the time, whatever. Like work functions. I wouldn't want to leave a work function early. And I'd have drinks even though I didn't want to because I felt I should participate.

@33:47 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. That's a different kind of boundary.

@33:49 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yep. That's another one actually. So there's two in there is feeling like you should. Let me come back to that one.

So the leaving the party. And also comes down to, like I had this with Leia. So I wanted to take Leia home from a play date and her little friend's mom had made pizza and I didn't want to stay for dinner.

I didn't want her to stay for dinner. I didn't want to eat pizza and I didn't want to, I didn't want to say no to it.

And there were so many things going on in that situation. One was I didn't want to disappoint Leia, who's my six-year-old daughter for you who are listening.

But I also didn't want to disappoint the mom because I thought if I look like a jerk, because I've said, well, no, I'm actually not going to stay for pizza, even though you've gone to all this work of making it.

Then I'm going to look like a jerk and she's going to abandon me.

@34:45 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. Yeah.

@34:47 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

I think that especially comes up with like new friends or friends that people that you don't know that well.

Yeah. Work colleagues, like it's harder for sure. So leaving on time. Is a boundary to set and it's hard.

And then there's that. So social pressures of doing things, eating things, putting things into your mouth that you don't want to is also a boundary.

So I don't drink anymore, but I sometimes will have part of a glass because I feel like people are going to judge me for not drinking.

Um, and I feel like they want me like, they're like, Oh, come on, just have one drink. And they don't really do that anymore.

Like we're adults here.

@35:36 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah.

@35:37 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

And I even felt that this is so ridiculous. I even felt that when I was at a restaurant, um, recently in Toronto, I took Leah out and we're at this restaurant and it's, it's a restaurant that's called champagne oysters and coffee or coffee, champagne, and oyster.

I forget the order. And so it's a champagne bar. And I was like, I should have a glass of champagne.

And I really kind of didn't want one, but I sort of wanted one. And part of it was the guilt I felt for going to this restaurant and not having an alcoholic drink.

@36:10 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah.

@36:11 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Which is people I don't even know. Like, who cares?

@36:14 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

I have felt that. I've walked into a restaurant and nobody at the table is drinking. I'm like, oh, having been a waitress before, a server, I feel bad.

Because I'm like, oh, our bill isn't going to be as high. The server is probably sitting there going, oh, I wish they would order drinks because that's going to ramp up the bill.

And then I get bigger tips. And it does seem ridiculous when you talk about it.

@36:41 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

I know. But those are the feelings that come up. Yeah. It's a judgment that's running in the back of your mind that you're not always even conscious of.

@36:51 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah.

@36:51 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

So that's a boundary, too. And putting things in your mouth, too. Like, for a while, I... Yeah, about this.

We can get into this later.

@38:02 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

She was making that mean something about her.

@38:05 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Exactly. My mother-in-law was taking offense to that, that I didn't want the dessert she'd made. And it had nothing to do with her and everything to do with the fact that I was trying to get pregnant.

And my Chinese doctor said, cut out sugar. It's going help. Cut out pain sugar. So, yeah, she didn't understand that because she doesn't understand.

And yeah, anyway, that's a, I can make that a very long story. But that, it was, it's sometimes about her and that's why she's pushing back.

That's why people give us grief about when we do set a boundary.

@38:40 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah.

@38:41 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

We feel guilty for not, for sticking to our guns or we get mad at ourselves later because we gave in.

@38:51 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. Yeah. I was really mad at myself for giving in to the other night. Because my whole next day was impacted.

My work, my everything.

@39:00 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

And then that anger at yourself runs in the background all day and takes away even more from your productivity.

@39:07 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. Yep. So what about some of the other things that we haven't really talked about? Like I'm thinking about like kind of energetic boundaries, like personal space, privacy.

Like this was a boundary that we, I think about this all the time. Like when you and I were kids and four of us, like three of us girls plus mom shared a bathroom and the bathroom door to the toilet part closed, but it didn't have a lock on it.

And the part with the sinks was open, not open, but like, yeah, had a door also, but mom would just fly in and start getting ready for her day.

While we were trying to get ready for hours and. I'd be in like on the toilet and she wants to get something from the bathtub, which was also in there, or there wasn't a respect for that privacy.

And I always felt very, what's the word? Like that boundary was violated. I didn't know how to describe it at the time, but it always made me angry.

@40:22 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah. And extremely vulnerable and uncomfortable. Like I remember, um, I remember lying in bed and actually being late for school because I was lying in bed for so long waiting because I was having my period and was waiting for mom to get out of the bathroom.

And she kept telling me to get out of bed and just come get ready in the bathroom. And I was like, I didn't want to tell her that I was having my period because that was so shameful in our household.

And so I was just waiting for her to get out of the bathroom.

@40:57 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

I totally did that too.

@41:00 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

So yeah, privacy, respecting other people's privacy, and asking for respect. I mean, that's something I still deal with now.

Like, I have to, Leia always wants to come into the bathroom when I'm going to the bathroom.

@41:15 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah.

@41:17 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Or when I'm having a shower. Like, I used to leave, when she was younger, especially, I used to leave the door open, because if I was in the shower, and she was asleep, I wanted her to know where I was, because she would get scared, like, not knowing where I was in the house.

@41:31 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

But she'd just walk into the shower.

@41:33 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

And sometimes she'd get undressed and come in the shower, which is fine, and it's cute, and whatever. But sometimes I just want to have a nice shower.

Yeah. So I wasn't setting great boundaries around that. Now we're kind of through that now, but I still have to fight with her about it.

@41:51 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

So yeah, the other one that I'm thinking about is personal space, which I don't think anybody really thinks about.

And yet they know. Oh, when they have a boundary. So I have a, an acquaintance who is a close talker and she will often, especially if she's been drinking, she will actually talk to you with her hands, like on your shoulders, on both your shoulders.

So it feels very intimate and uncomfortable for me. I don't know her that well. And, and yet I don't know how to get her to, like, I just want my actual personal space boundary.

And I don't know how to get her to, yeah, to just take a step back.

@42:40 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

But that's like anything around.

@42:42 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

I have another friend who hates hugging and people love to hug her. And she doesn't like, she's actually pretty good about saying, no, I don't hug.

It's not me. And some people we've learned, but at first, you know, being on the other side. That could feel, it doesn't bother me because I understand that, but it does a lot of other people.

Like, oh, she doesn't want me to hug her? Like, I would take offense to that. So I think that's another one that we don't think of as a boundary.

@43:17 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

We don't. And it's an important one because a lot of people feel like they have to hug when, or that's a perfect example.

They feel like they have to hug because they were told as kids, like, go hug your grandmother. Give your creepy uncle a hug before we go, or whatever it is.

Like, you have to, so we're told to please others. We're told, like, you should give them a hug. So then in adult life, when we don't feel comfortable actually hugging somebody, then it's hard to voice that need.

@43:55 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah.

@43:56 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

One way, you've given a great example, though, of one way to do it. And that's to just say you have a policy.

I don't hug. That way people know like you just don't hug. And it's not about them to not take it personally.

@44:10 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. We're jumping to tips now. Are there any other types of boundaries that you're thinking about that we don't, like that we don't honor or we're not even aware that we have?

@44:27 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yep. Emotional boundaries. So especially if you are the kind of person who really values meaningful relationships and you tend to be the friend who people rely on or the friend who who's the listener.

@44:49 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yes.

@44:51 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Then you might, you know, setting boundaries around just what you're emotionally capable of. Thank Thank

@45:04 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

I hadn't ever thought about that one. And yet I have a perfect example of someone who was so good at maintaining that.

I was at dinner with someone recently. And actually a few people, there were a few of us around the table and there was a, one of them had her daughter there who I think is 14 or something.

And this 14 year old girl was talking about a very violent show movie or something that she had been, that she had watched.

And her mother, like it, there was, there's no judgment on it. Like I, if her mother is a very spiritual person, it was shocking to me that this girl had even watched the show, but, um, or this movie, but she was giving the finer details of it.

And, and my friend was saying, we don't need to hear those details. And she kept going. And so my friend reasserted.

I'm telling you that I don't want to hear those details because that was, that was emotion that she didn't want to take on.

was stuff that she didn't want to hear about. And she had, I mean, a 14 year old girl doesn't necessarily understand boundaries yet, or doesn't know what is being asked of her or doesn't understand the need.

So my friend had to really like be firm about it. But I was like, wow, it's not her kid.

Like this wasn't the mother that was doing it. It was my friend. It was another, it wasn't the mother who was telling her daughter not to do this.

It was the other, my other friend who was telling the other woman's daughter to stop doing this. And I was like, wow, she like either knows this girl really well, or she just feels really comfortable asserting that boundary.

And I was impressed. You know, I didn't really think of that as setting a boundary.

@46:57 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah. It also comes into play when you have to sort of think.

@47:00 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Therapize your friends. Yes.

@47:03 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Like I had that when years ago, I had a bunch of friends who were really big drinkers. And there were a couple of them who were alcoholics and ended up in rehab.

And I got to a point where I just couldn't support them anymore.

@47:17 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah.

@47:18 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

she was sort of like, I remember thinking to myself, I am going through my own . can't deal with yours right now.

@47:24 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah.

@47:24 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

And we don't set those boundaries because if you are the kind of person, like I'm like this, I have this personality characteristic, but I value meaningful relationships.

I like being the rock for my friends, but sometimes it's too much. So that's a boundary, emotional boundaries, setting those.

@47:44 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

You know, I want to make a distinction here for us childless women, because I think, so there's a few things that could go on there.

Like if. What immediately came to mind was a situation where I'm someone who doesn't have kids. I'm sitting across from a mom who is carrying on about the struggles that she's having with her teenage daughter.

@48:16 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yes. Yeah.

@48:18 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

And there's a difference between not wanting to hear about that because you're triggered and, and not wanting to hear about it because you legitimately can't, like, because you.

Situation. I have a friend who really struggled with her teenage daughter. She was into all kinds of things that I won't get into.

And I was in a place where. a place where. Here we I had healed, that wasn't triggering to me.

So I could listen to her. And it didn't, like it didn't trigger me. I didn't have like, that feeling that so many childless women complain about, which is like, I would take your problems over this any day.

So don't like, you're not allowed to complain about your situation because this is worse. Or I would take that over what I'm feeling.

I would take that struggle.

@49:32 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Right. I would take that struggle with kids. Or I'd take that struggle with your teenager any day over the situation I'm in, which is I don't have children and I want them.

Yeah. Yeah.

@49:43 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

And that's different than me sitting there thinking, okay, this isn't triggering, this is not hitting a nerve. This isn't making me feel grief or envy or like I can't.

And like, can't belong to the mom club. can't understand what you're going through. I could understand it. And I could, and I didn't have all of those triggers.

But there did, like there was this occurred after a few, like we talked about it a few different times.

And there came a point where I was like, Oh, like this is a lot for me to take on right now on that particular day.

So one day I'm fine. I have the emotional capacity to take on her pain, not take it on, but to, to empathize with it.

@50:41 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah.

@50:41 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

But then on another day where I'm carrying too much other stuff, then maybe I can't. And that varies from day to day.

@50:52 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yep. Yep. Emotional boundaries are, they can, you know, that, yeah, it can vary day to day. And it can also be that you're in a state.

You know, like, I've been in a state recently where, because my own relationship was so difficult, that I couldn't, it was very hard for me to hold space for other people.

@51:15 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Especially on that particular topic, I would think.

@51:18 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yes. Especially on that, on the particular topic of your relationship with your spouse, for sure.

@51:24 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Which is why I think it's actually difficult, this is getting on a tangent, but I feel like I need to say this.

Like, sometimes in support groups, if there's too much, if you're so far, if you're deep in your own pain, and you go to an online forum or support group or Facebook group or whatever, on whatever topic it is, maybe it's childlessness, but maybe it's something else.

And you go in there and there's too many other people who are deep in their own pain, it can be hard to be in that.

And we don't always, I mean, on Facebook, it's easy to take a step back and say, oh, I'm just not going to go in that group for a bit.

But if it's within, say, a group of women that you have been, you know, it's a group of friends, or it's a, you know, that pattern is coming up, it can be really hard to step away.

@52:27 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah.

@52:28 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Okay, back to the boundaries thing. Okay, so, gosh, I feel like there's so many other boundaries that come up.

Yeah, probably the last one is maybe work that I'm thinking about, because this comes up a lot. Funny enough, like a lot of the times in the Women of Worth program, we don't talk about being childless at all, we talk about work.

And how, you know, boundaries that work is a really hard. place to, like you said earlier, And we don't even know we can instill boundaries at work.

You got to do what your client wants. You got to do what your boss wants. Like, how do I say no to them?

And yet, it's actually great. That wasn't the question, but like, cause we're going to get to that, but let's talk about the different things that we run into at work.

@53:19 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

And there's so many, it's opening up a can of worms, but let's touch on a few. One of the biggest ones now since COVID is that there is no boundary between work and home because so many people are working from home now.

So people find it difficult. I mean, the women in my boundary queen program last weekend were, um, talked a lot about this, how they feel like, well, they can just go back to their desk after dinner.

Or if they have to take their kid to the doctor, they feel like they have to make it up on the weekend.

Whereas before, if it was going to the office, they wouldn't go into the office.

@54:00 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

on the weekend. Yeah.

@54:02 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

And they might, and because they're not in the habit of it, they wouldn't open up their laptop either. But now the laptop's just at home.

The office is there.

@54:11 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah.

@54:12 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Much harder to create that boundary. There's boundaries at work around leaving on time, which meetings you're going to attend.

@54:22 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Like a lot of people attend meetings they don't need to be in.

@54:25 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

And they don't actually say no to those meetings. It's taking on projects that you don't have time for. And you just say yes to it because you think you have to say yes.

@54:35 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah.

@54:35 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

And then try to just juggle the whole load instead of saying something like, well, I have actually have a full plate right now.

What, what can we, what deadlines can we push out then in order to me, for me to make space for this one?

And we can get into the reasons, but most women don't want to do that because they're afraid.

@54:58 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

It makes them look like they can't handle it. Yeah. Yep. I was coaching. This was so interesting to me.

I was coaching a friend of mine on, it was actually health coaching. We were doing, we were talking about weight loss and the first meeting we had come, you know, she went away with some commitments.

One of those was to take the supplement that was already in her cupboard. And another one was to go and buy another supplement, which by the time we met again, a month later, she hadn't gone to buy the new supplement and hadn't taken the other ones she already had.

And this was when we really got into the coaching. And what came out was, well, I don't feel like I have time to even get to the store.

Okay, why not? And once, like when we really got into it, she was accepting meetings at five o'clock. She didn't feel like she was allowed to say no to her boss.

She was doing work at night. She was taking on all of these things. And when we really got to the root of that, she had, through COVID, she had lost a lot of her network and lost touch with people, which is her way of finding new jobs.

And she relied heavily on that in the past. And she was so afraid that if she lost her job, her husband also had lost his job.

So she was so afraid that if she lost her job, that these things would cause her to lose her job.

And that if she lost her job, she wouldn't have a network to fall back on to get a new one.

So it was the fears that were keeping her from setting boundaries at work that were then in turn, keeping her from taking care of her own health.

health. Like it's So it's such a massive web that this creates. I don't think people even understand how big this is, like how important it is to learn what boundaries are, how to set them, and how to actually maintain them.

@57:20 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah, because it's pitched, and this drives me crazy. Setting boundaries is pitched in the media and in leadership articles and people I've even seen speaking, is you set boundaries so you can get some self-care.

@57:37 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah.

@57:38 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

And we think that self-care is a luxury. Yes.

@57:42 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Especially because nowadays self-care is going for a massage or it's, you know, like people make it out to be these big things.

@57:49 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

And what we don't realize is how not setting boundaries, not setting them affects everything. Like, not just your work.

It affects how you lead, because if you're putting everybody else ahead of you and saying yes to everything, then you're not actually leading.

That's following.

@58:11 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yep. Oh, that's so true. Oh, I've never heard you say that before. Say that again.

@58:19 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

If you're saying yes to everything, effectively, and doing it all, you're effectively putting everything else and everybody else above you.

And ahead of you. You're putting their needs first. So that means that you're not leading. You're following.

@58:40 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Oh, that is such an aha moment for me. I hope it is for listeners as well, because that's like, I never thought of it that way.

@58:52 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Hmm. Yeah. So it's like when I teach leadership, that's, that's what I tell them. This is. This is not about you having luxurious self-care time.

It's about you leading in life. And like, if you, if you want to feel inspiration and if you want to actually lead people, you have to set boundaries.

Yeah.

@59:16 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Well, and setting boundaries and maintaining them, like actually enforcing them, that is the self-care.

@59:27 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

It is. Each boundary you set is telling yourself that you deserve it.

@59:34 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

And it's telling yourself that you are an equal. Yeah. Yeah. And that you are worthy of that time that you're protecting or that personal space boundary that you're protecting.

Like every time I let somebody come into my personal space when I don't want them there, that's me reinforcing to my body that her.

Her needs, her social, whatever needs for intimacy are more important than my body and how it makes me feel.

@1:00:09 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah. And it's, this is what, like, this is the crux of diversity, equity, and inclusion.

@1:00:17 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

How so? Explain that.

@1:00:19 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Well, we have all these policies in place for DEI and workplaces and in government and all the stuff happening with Trump right now.

But actually, each time you put everybody else in front of you, and you say yes to the meaning you don't want to be in, or you say you don't set a boundary, you are reinforcing to yourself that you are not as good.

@1:00:44 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yep.

@1:00:45 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

And now you're saying that you don't deserve equity.

@1:00:49 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah.

@1:00:50 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

How are women ever supposed to have equity in workplaces if we don't actually believe in ourselves?

@1:00:57 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yep. Yeah, we keep putting other people's needs. Before our own, that puts us on the bottom. It's not a level playing field.

It's a totem pole.

@1:01:07 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah. So we're putting ourselves at the bottom of the priority list. That means we're putting ourselves at the bottom of the totem pole.

So we're not leading. We don't feel like we're leading because we're not in the energy of leadership. And we're never going to get pay equity because we are reinforcing for ourselves and everyone else around us that we come last.

@1:01:27 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yep. Yep. It all boils down to our worth.

@1:01:32 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah. So we should talk about that next.

@1:01:36 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah.

@1:01:37 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

So what is stopping us from setting these boundaries?

@1:01:41 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. So I think this is a good point to just sort of reiterate that, because I was just at a thing the other day where they were trying to teach us how to get our time back.

And one of the first points was, No thank you is a full sentence.

@1:02:03 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yep.

@1:02:05 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

And yet, saying no thank you, like I couldn't say no to my friend, as we talked about earlier, to get in the car and drive home with me, sure it's a full sentence.

But to actually get those words out when you need them is, it doesn't matter if you have the words, you will override them with, sure, come on in to my car and I'll drive you home and then we'll sit there for an hour and then I'll go home.

Yeah, so, I think what we're saying is, we have to be, one of the things that underlies this, one of the things that makes the yes come out of our mouth instead of no, is I'm putting their needs above my own.

So it's our own self-worth. Your needs are more important than mine. I'm putting myself at the bottom of the totem pole because I.

Either your needs are more important than mine, or my need to ensure this relationship is good is coming above my actual need.

@1:03:17 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah, I'm just thinking about that, Sheri. It does. It always comes down to self-worth. And the problem with us saying that, I guess, is that many women see themselves as confident, high-achieving women.

@1:03:46 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yep.

@1:03:47 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

So they don't see. And they are. And they are. So they don't see themselves as having self-worth issues. Issues, like in air quotes.

to with this. You So let's talk about what we mean by that so that the listener can see how that actually plays out and what we mean by that.

@1:04:17 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah, actually, that's something that I've had women reach out to me when I talk about self-worth, that they tell me that they're very triggered by that.

Because I think what's happening in them, they're reacting, going, well, I have self-worth. Who's she to tell me that my self-worth is suffering here?

And if you're a listener, my dear listeners, if you're feeling that right now, stay with us. This isn't your fault.

And it's not about confidence. You can still have confidence while experiencing, I don't know, issues, as you said, or problems with self-worth.

@1:04:55 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

It's also the human condition. So it's not like there's something wrong with you. If you have, um, let's call it gaps in your self-worth.

Like there's nothing wrong with you. That's, it's not a flaw.

@1:05:13 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Right. Yes. That's like that. I think society has like taught us that that's a flaw, but it's just a, you're right.

It's just a human condition. I like to think of it as a muscle that we, that we can build.

So, you know, our muscles, we can lift up the two, three, five, 10 pound weights. You build muscle by practicing and building.

Those muscles can also atrophy if you stop exercising or you stop lifting anything or you stop doing whatever those muscles will atrophy.

It doesn't mean anything about you. It's just what your muscles do when they're not exercised.

@1:05:59 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Right. Right. Right. It doesn't mean you're flat because your muscles stopped, like started to atrophy when you stopped working out.

@1:06:06 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

No, that's just what our bodies do. It's just what our bodies do. Yeah.

@1:06:11 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Except for maybe a few very anomalies.

@1:06:16 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. So let's talk about what else or what's my question? What else could be going on behind the scenes or subconsciously when someone allows a boundary, one of their boundaries to be stepped on?

@1:06:40 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

It's fear. And there's hundreds of different fears. A lot of people call it guilt. So it can be guilt.

And sometimes that guilt isn't actually guilt. It's feeling like a bad person because you were told as a little girl.

That you're bad if you disappoint mom.

@1:07:04 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah, so disappointing someone means shame.

@1:07:10 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yes, and you were shamed for disappointing people.

@1:07:15 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah, yeah, my goodness. Like, that was the worst kind of shame when your parents said, we're disappointed in you.

@1:07:23 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah, I would feel awful and yes, very shameful about that. Or if they said, if they actually said, shame on you.

@1:07:30 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. So there's a fear of experiencing shame.

@1:07:35 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah, so all of this is also interlinked. The fears are quite often, I mean, there's practical fears, like I'm going to lose my job.

Or I'm going to lose my relationship with my friend. But there's also a fear of feeling what we call negative emotions.

And they're not negative, there are no negative emotions. But Gabby Bernstein calls them impermissible emotions.

@1:08:00 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Which I think... He's a better definition. Yeah.

@1:08:03 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

So we don't want to, yeah, because we've been told that anger is not permissible. Shame is awful. We don't want to feel sadness.

We don't want to feel rage. So we fear feeling those emotions. So we will keep saying yes, or, you know, not setting boundaries because we don't want to feel those awful emotions.

@1:08:31 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yep.

@1:08:32 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

And then there's, this is also fear, but judgment, like it's, I'm going to look selfish if I set a boundary.

I'm going to look uncommitted at work. I'm going to look weak. Like I have what other people are going to think or how they're going to judge me.

Mm-hmm.

@1:08:54 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Mm-hmm.

@1:08:55 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

So fear, emotions, judgment, and they're all kind of in a way one in the same. Mm-hmm.

@1:09:02 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. Okay. Anything else to say about that before we, I think we're kind of getting close to wrapping it up here?

@1:09:10 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

I would say those are the biggest ones, that if you start to uncover your fears and your emotions around the boundaries, you don't have to worry about setting boundaries anymore because they come naturally.

@1:09:26 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yes. However, I think there's a couple of things around that. It's really, like, initially, it's really hard to identify what those feelings, like, identify even when a boundary is in question.

@1:09:42 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah.

@1:09:44 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

And then to understand what you're feeling, what's coming up, that's preventing you from saying the yes or the no that you know you need to do.

@1:09:57 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Right.

@1:09:58 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

And, and. Then, like, the recognition, like, those are the first steps, right? The noticing, becoming aware of what's going on.

But then, how do we actually build or reclaim that self-worth so that we set the boundary or maintain those boundaries so that we feel like we deserve to keep those boundaries so that we move up on the totem pole, like, turn that on its side.

@1:10:31 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah.

@1:10:32 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

So that we are all, you know, my needs are just as important as the person standing in front of me.

@1:10:40 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Right. And I, so just to bring that back around to how, like, the fears, the emotions, the judgment comes down to self-worth.

Yes. if you feel, for example, if you feel like, if you take, Time for yourself, and you leave work on time, or you leave work early, that you're going to look selfish and uncommitted, where that's coming from is that you don't feel worthy of taking that time for yourself.

@1:11:17 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah.

@1:11:18 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

There might be a fear as well of losing your job, but it comes down to, I'm not worthy of having time for myself.

My job comes first.

@1:11:29 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah. Yeah. I don't deserve this. I haven't earned this. Those are all like ways that comes up, right?

@1:11:38 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah. I'm a bad person for doing that or not doing that. I'm a bad person because I disappointed my friend.

And that means, and if I'm a bad person, and that's shameful, that means I'm not worthy. I'm not just innately worthy, no matter what I do.

Yeah.

@1:11:59 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Thank So I think we've kind of given our listeners here the first couple of steps to this, which is now you know what some of these boundaries are and maybe how to look at your life and what kind of boundaries have you not even thought about before and can begin to set.

Like set a policy around. I don't stay at book club longer than 930 so that I can be home by 10.

That policy that I could set. So it's recognizing first, like where in your life have you not set any boundaries or didn't even think that we were talking about boundaries where it so it's that it's the awareness of how often these are coming into play.

Step two is noticing when you're allowing people to increase. Approach on your boundaries or step all over them. And what are those, maybe even step three, which is like, what are the feelings that are coming up that are keeping you from implementing or maintaining your boundaries?

So what are the emotions coming up for you? Is it fear? Is it that fear of disappointing? Is it, I'm going to be a bad person if I say no here.

I'm going to look like a jerk. And then I think after that actually comes the hard part, which is steps four, five, six, and seven.

How do we actually build that exercise, that muscle? How do we actually build that self-worth to a point where this is just like, oh, yeah, no, I'm not doing that.

And I'm okay. I didn't die.

@1:13:58 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

Yeah, I think that's a great summary.

@1:14:00 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

 Okay, so steps four, five, six, and beyond, how can our listeners learn that?

@1:14:10 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

So I have two, well, right now I am running a virtual retreat. It's on April 13th at one o'clock in the afternoon.

And so online, I'm calling it Guilt-Free Boundary Queen. So it actually helps women to dig a little bit deeper into steps one, two, and three, so that they can start to understand and really start to identify what those fears are so that they can release them.

@1:14:43 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Correct.

@1:14:44 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

So we can link that in the show notes, I think.

@1:14:47 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Yeah, we'll link that up in the show notes. So this is open to any, this is open to anyone to attend this retreat, and we'll link it up in the show notes so you can just go ahead and...

Grab that. It's coming up very soon by the time we publish this. It'll just be a week away.

@1:15:08 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

So get on that. All right. Thank you.

@1:15:12 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Okay. Yeah. Thanks for coming. Oh, and so you'll also find where to find me and where to find Jen in the show notes.

So Jen, you're at Jen Reimer Leadership.

@1:15:24 - Jennifer Reimer (virtuousradicals.com)

On Instagram. Yeah. Jen Reimer Leadership. I give lots of other tools and mindset shifting stuff on around setting boundaries and as well as on burnout.

@1:15:40 - Sheri Johnson (Sheri Johnson)

Okay. Beautiful. I will be at the boundary setting retreat, the boundary queen retreat. So you'll see me there. And I hope you're going to join me because I think it's going to be phenomenal.

It's going to take this, what you learned today. to like a hundred steps further and really see some differences in your life.